FDA is stating that they want you to start Pre Screening employees before their shift. This should include taking the employee’s temperatures and to ask them some questions about their potential exposure to COVID-19 and how they are feeling.
Quick Tip: do this by the door, limit the employees access to the restaurant until you verify they are fit to work. If they are sick, it will be a lot less for your to disinfect.
OpsAnalitica has created a Free Employee Health Verification form that manages the Employee Pre-Screen process. If you want to start using this at your restaurants, please initiate a chat in the bottom right corner of this screen. We are making this available for Free through May.
The only way we are going to make it through this COVID-19 crisis is to simultaneously cut costs while pivoting a large portion of our resources to maximize our take-out, drive-thru and delivery sales channels.
If we can do this quickly, we can adapt to the lower sales during this enforced social distancing period and conserve cash. In times like this, cash flow is king.
Also, we need to be realistic about how much of our sales are going to return when we can open our dining rooms again. The word we’re hearing from China is that people are out and about but they aren’t rushing to dine in again. Those traditional dine in sales are trickling in slowly.
One way to immediately cut costs is to optimize your Field Teams by providing them with better technology that allows them to work remotely. This will allow you to simultaneously:
Increase Area/District Manager patch size by 25 to 100%
You will get more consistent and frequent interactions with the use of technology
Reduce head count or shift field team members to new roles
Here is how it could work:
Repurpose your current field team site visit into a self inspection that can be completed by the In-Store team using the OpsAnalitica Platform.
This will be scheduled on a weekly, bi-weekly or monthly basis depending on Area/District Manager patch size.
This in-store self Inspection will be conducted by the restaurant General Manager and cover the normal touch points that an Area/District Manager would inspect in person.
This Self Inspection will require a lot of mandatory photos that will be taken all around the restaurant.
The Area/District Manager and the Store Manager will review this inspection together via zoom or video conference meeting.
Area/District managers can coach on standards and create action plan tasks for the restaurant manager to complete.
The immediate benefits of this approach
The ability to reduce head count and increase patch size of remaining above store managers will cut costs.
An Area/District Manager could easily conduct six 1-hour Self Inspection Reviews a day.
At 6 reviews a day, one Area/District Manager could conduct 30 reviews a week and 120 a month.
Reduction in wasted travel time:
Cut wind shield time driving to restaurants – We’ve heard of Area/District Managers spending 25% or more of their time in a week driving to restaurants.
Cut travel expenses for above store leaders who have patches that require overnight/airline travel.
More visits: for some large franchise concepts, above store leaders only visit restaurants one time a month to one time a quarter.
Protect employees health and your brand.
We are supposed to be socially distancing, requiring an Area/District Manager to be visiting restaurants puts that person in contact with more people than they should be right now.
The nightmare scenario is an asymptomatic Area/District Manager visiting multiple restaurants and spreading COVID-19 requiring a very public shutdown of those locations.
Because these reviews are centrally managed you can easily update them and change them to match your current priorities.
In this rapidly changing times, I would suggest that 80% of the visit be the core inspection, and 20% might change week-to-week based on new priorities.
Having OpsAnalitica in the restaurants provides you with the ability to collect other data from the restaurant level.
Our Employee Health Verification and Temperature Form would be the next most important example.
An ancillary benefit will be that store managers will probably fix issues before they take the photos during their Self Inspections so they will be addressing issues proactively.
If an issue shows up in a picture that is an immediate coaching moment.
This is scalable above store management. It will allow companies to maintain a corporate presence at the location level, ensuring that corporate standards are being maintained while cutting costs, protecting employee health, and safe guarding the brand.
I also want to make it clear that we believe that Area/District Managers play a vital role in any restaurant company. When it is safe and appropriate to visit restaurants again they will absolutely be going back out.
This type of remote management along with less frequent site visits will allow your future field team to really focus their on-site visits on the restaurants that really need their attention, allowing your Area/District Managers to make a real impact on performance without neglecting their other stores.
Here is a quick webinar describing how this plan could work.
During this crisis we are offering free use and set-up of the OpsAnalitica Platform. We can get you set-up for a test in a matter of 24 to 48 hours. We will also include our COVID-19 Employee Health Verification and Risk Assessment. If you would like to learn more, initiate a chat in the bottom right hand corner of this blog and select sales.
Since the WHO and CDC have declared that we are in the midst of a COVID-19 Pandemic, the EEOC has allowed the taking of employee temperatures.
I recently was a panelist on a webinar hosted by the World Health Congress & The Validation Institute and I was able to discuss the taking of employee temperatures with Dr. Ian Lipkin, head of Epidemiology at Columbia University.
Dr. Lipkin stated that a person with COVID-19 might be asymptomatic so the taking of employee temps shouldn’t be the only thing you do or rely on. On the other hand, you may identify a person who has a fever who might not be aware of it. Overall, it is a worthwhile exercise.
It is so worthwhile that Burger King, McDonalds, and many other fast food restaurants are rapidly procuring thermometers to start this process.
A couple of things to consider:
You should know why are you doing this?
Is this to protect you from a potential future liability?
Is this to stop a potentially sick employee from working today?
Where are you storing this data?
Not planning on recording the temp, just checking as the employee enters the restaurant.
In a Platform like OpsAnalitica.
Keeping this written down on paper.
How long are you planning on storing the data?
This data must be kept confidential.
You are allowed to ask questions about COVID-19 only, and I suggest that you do.
You should definitely ask if the person has taken fever reducers in the last 24 hours.
You should also ask specifically if an employee has been in contact with someone who has been diagnosed with COVID-19.
You should ask the employee if they have been diagnosed with COVID-19.
Do you have a plan for what you are going to do if you identify a sick employee?
You should document that you sent the employee home and what symptoms they were exhibiting.
If a person is exhibiting symptoms today, they could have been contagious for up to a week. You should pull schedules for the last week.
I would suggest that the person get a COVID-19 test and offer to pay for it if necessary.
Where in your restaurant are you going to fill out this questionnaire and take their temperature?
If the person has COVID-19 and they are on the line, what are the consequences of them being close to food?
Doing this by the entrance door makes a lot of sense, it would be the easiest area to clean and sanitize?
What kind of thermometer are you going to use?
Make sure to disinfect it in between uses.
Definitely use a forehead thermometer or ear. You don’t want to use an oral thermometer.
Is the manager going to take the temperature or is the employee.
Some thermometers are hard to take your own temperature.
If a manager is going to be getting very close to an employee, they should wear a mask.
Managers and employees should do their best to maintain social distancing protocols.
What if an employee is coughing but doesn’t have a fever?
Coughing and fever are the two main symptoms of COVID-19. I would recommend sending the employee home until their coughing stops.
Do you have health insurance and Sick Leave?
I believe you have to cover 14 days of sick pay for people who are diagnosed with COVID-19. You should confirm this in your state.
Does your current sick leave policy create an incentive for employees to lie to you? If yes, you should correct that immediately.
We have created a health verification form to use for employees. It guides the manager through asking questions and taking temperatures. It is a part of our free COVID-19 resources.
If you are interested in learning more or taking advantage of these resources, please open a chat in the bottom right hand corner of the page.
To get some more information on the legal aspects of taking temperatures of employees you can check out these resources:
We have created Free Tools for restaurant operators to help them manage their restaurants and decrease risk during the COVID-19 crisis. As with all OpsAnalitica Processes, these are 100% customizable for your business.
To get these free tools, click on the chat bot in the bottom right hand corner of this page.
Quick Synopsis of all of the Tools:
COVID-19 Customer Temperature Screening: The State of California just released guidance on screening customers temperatures before allowing them to enter your restaurant. We have modified our Employee Temperature Pre-Screen process to address this new use case.
COVID-19 Employee Temperature Pre-Screen:The FDA Stated that they want restaurants to Pre-Screen employees for COVID-19 by taking temperatures and assessing the employees health before their shift. This process does both. Check out this Resource to learn more
Hourly Disinfectant Schedule: This checklist is meant to be customized to your locations and provides a great starting point for creating a routine restaurant disinfecting process. Focusing on Human Touch Points.
Risk Evaluations (Full Service & QSR): These risk assessments guide you through the different potential virus transmission risk points in your operations and provides you with a clear understanding of how to mitigate those risks. See the video below.
Sick Employee & Customer Incident Logs: These logs will allow you to document any sick customer or employee incidents in your locations. Documenting your COVID-19 procedures will protect your location and your brand, to learn more check out this blog: Document, Document, Document, everything you do around COVID-19
Take-out/Drive-Thru Scorecard: A lot of Field Team Managers are unable to visit their restaurants today because of COVID-19. This Scorecard will allow those team members to grade the restaurants on how they are doing from a take-out/drive-thru perspective without having to enter the restaurant.
One of the most important tools on this list is the Employee Health Verification Process. This process is bullet proof and it guides your manager through the taking of the temperature and the asking of a few key questions about the employees potential exposure to COVID-19.
Here is a quick video that shows the process in action:
If you have any questions about this content or if you would like to get access to our free COVID-19 tools. Please access the chat bot in the bottom right corner of the screen.
In the first response under the Questions and Answers for Industry Section – Social Distancing, Disinfecting & Other Precautions
Should Employers in retail food and food production settings wear face coverings to prevent exposure to COVID-19 Posted 4/42020
On April 3, the CDC released an updated recommendation regarding the use of cloth face coverings to help slow the spread of COVID-19. CDC recommends the use of simple cloth face coverings as a voluntary public health measure in public settings where other social distancing measures are difficult to maintain (e.g., grocery stores and pharmacies).
For workers on farms, and in food production, processing, and retail settings who do not typically wear masks as part of their jobs, consider the following if you choose to use a cloth face covering to slow the spread of COVID-19:
Maintain face coverings in accordance with parameters in FDA’s Model Food Code sections 4-801.11 Clean Linens and 4.802.11 Specifications.
Launder reusable face coverings before each daily use.
NOTE: The cloth face coverings recommended by CDC are not surgical masks or N-95 respirators. Those are critical supplies that must continue to be reserved for healthcare workers and other medical first responders, as recommended by current CDC guidance.
I’m going to continue to update this section with new answers to questions as we get them. So check back often or submit a question that isn’t addressed in the comments and I will do my best to find you the answer.
What should I be sanitizing in my business?
Every business is different so it is impossible to create a definitive list of items, follow these guidelines and assess your individual space.
Everything that people touch, with a focus on things that your customers touch or things that multiple employees might touch.
Knobs (doors, faucet, cabinet, etc..)
Phones and keyboards
Chairs – seats, arm rests, and backs
Pens – if you need to have people physically sign things consider purchasing promotional pens and giving them away to customers.
If you’re the only person who uses your phone and keyboard then that isn’t as important as a phone that is shared by multiple employees.
How long can COVID-19 live on surfaces?
At least 72 hours right now. That guidance may change.
Realistically, that should never happen because you should be sanitizing things that people touch much more often than that.
How often should I be sanitizing these items?
It depends on customer traffic. If you are super busy and a lot of people are coming in and out of your business, every 30 minutes to an hour.
If you are slow and maybe one person a day comes in and out of your doors then maybe right after the person leaves.
How do I sanitize?
See below in the blog, there is a description of the differences between sanitation and disinfection. Short answer you need a chemical that kills germs.
What products should I use?
I’ve included two screen shots of the residential items in the appendix at the bottom of the blog.
Here is the EPA List: https://www.epa.gov/pesticide-registration/list-n-disinfectants-use-against-sars-cov-2
What kind of Sanitizers should I use on surfaces?
Non-porous: hard surfaces like counters and stainless steel.
Porous: fabrics and cloth
Should I require my customers to sanitize their hands when they enter my business?
I think you should, its for your safety as well as theirs.
I can tell you from my own personal experience that on a Disney Cruise you cannot enter a dining room of the buffet withOut washing or sanitizing your hands.
Should I require customers to wear masks and gloves?
That is up to you. I think that after these initial shortages go away having masks and gloves available upon request for customers and employees would be a good.
How important is social distancing in a business and how do I do it?
If you are within 6 feet of someone that has COVID-19 for 10 minutes you should isolate for 14 days to see if symptoms appear. This is according to the State of Washington Department of health. Social Distancing is very important.
Put lines on the floor around counters and desks.
Remove chairs or block chairs off to create space.
Implement schedule times for people to come into your business.
Ask people to wait in their cars or in public areas and get their phones numbers and call them to come in when it is safe to do so.
Can I use UV light to Sanitize rooms?
Yes, they make robots and lamps that do this.
Make sure you read the safety warnings as UVC, the frequency of light that can kill COVID-19, can be dangerous to skin and eyes.
What is Sanitation Theater?
Sanitation Theater is making a very public display of sanitizing or disinfecting an area. It is meant to reduce anxiety of people who are concerned about how safe an area is.
The purpose of Sanitation Theater is to make people feel safe and secure that they aren’t going to get sick from your environment.
It is as important as Sanitizing from a marketing perspective.
The New COVID-19 World
We are in the COVID-19 Era which is creating a new paradigm in how we interact with people and objects that we touch. The COVID-19 virus is highly contagious, either through direct contact with a COVID infected person or by touching something that has COVID-19 germs on it. What makes this even worse is that COVID-19 germs can live on hard shiny surfaces for up 72 hours.
Like many of you, I’m sure already know, but it bears repeating, a person who is infected with COVID-19 may not show any symptoms for at least 7 days with 97% of people showing some symptoms by 11 days. The infected person is contagious that entire period.
Meaning that there are people walking around right now shedding COVID-19 germs on objects, interacting with people, who do not know they are sick and are spreading the virus around.
That is a new reality and we as business owners need to recognize that our customers will need new public space bubbles and demand businesses engage in increased sanitation protocols to keep them safe during interactions.
Being exposed to COVID-19 can result in a bare minimum of having to self-isolate for 14 days and at maximum could result in life-threatening illness. Something else to consider, in the near future, a person who is sick with COVID-19, will have a contact trace done on them, this is what they do today in South Korea and across Asia.
Contact tracing is where you have to identify each person you came into direct contact with and businesses you visited over the last 7 to 10 days so that they can isolate, get tested, and go through contact tracing as well. Meaning that 1 person could cause 10’s to 100’s of people to have isolate and get tested.
This could be devastating to a business or a brand if you are the source point of an outbreak.
Right now the US isn’t engaging in contact tracing today because we are in full-blown outbreak mode right now and the resources and the systems don’t exist to do this. Once the curve is flattened and we go back out into society, contact tracing will be a big part of the procedures for containing COVID-19 moving forward. The watchwords are Isolate, Test, Contact Trace, Rinse & Repeat.
In the future, you can expect that groups of people who have been exposed to COVID-19 will be isolated for 14 days while the rest of us are able to interact in society vs. these huge shutdowns that we are in now.
This is a big deal but also an opportunity for business owners to differentiate themselves by really thinking through how to create an atmosphere that is safe and reassuring for customers.
I work in the restaurant industry so we are very familiar with sanitation, especially in kitchens. For a lot of you sanitation is going to be a new concept as you will have to be sanitizing your business throughout the day as customers come and go.
Know the difference between cleaning, disinfecting, and sanitizing
Cleaning removes germs, dirt, and impurities from surfaces or objects. Cleaning works by using soap (or detergent) and water to physically remove germs from surfaces. This process does not necessarily kill germs, but by removing them, it lowers their numbers and the risk of spreading infection.
Disinfecting kills germs on surfaces or objects. Disinfecting works by using chemicals to kill germs on surfaces or objects. This process does not necessarily clean dirty surfaces or remove germs, but by killing germs on a surface after cleaning, it can further lower the risk of spreading infection.
Sanitizing lowers the number of germs on surfaces or objects to a safe level, as judged by public health standards or requirements. This process works by either cleaning or disinfecting surfaces or objects to lower the risk of spreading infection.
How do I know what to Sanitize and Disinfect?
We are going to introduce the concept of Human TouchPoints. Human TouchPoints are exactly what they sound like they are the things that humans touch in your business. These touchpoints could contain COVID-19 germs and be a point where they are spread to other customers and employees.
Our goal, in the new COVID-19 world, is to reduce Human TouchPoints and Unnecessary Human Interactions wherever possible. Contactless is the new standard that customers will be judging businesses on.
What we recommend doing is a risk assessment of your business to identify where you are going to need to focus.
Here is how you can do that.
Enter your business from outside.
Pretend you have COVID-19 germs all over your hands.
Re-enact a typical customer interaction in your business.
Write down all of the different things that as a customer you touch or interact with throughout your visit.
Everything you touch or come into contact with needs to be written down as they will need to be sanitized upon you concluding your interaction.
As you are conducting this exercise, pretend to sneeze or cough and try to determine what impact that could have on your customers, employees, and property.
Also, pay attention to social distancing during these interactions, are their times when the customer and the employee are too close to each other and could put each other at risk of spreading COVID-19.
When looking at human interactions, ask yourself, is this completely necessary? Is there a way I could remove this interaction or automate it using an app or technology to make the process more contactless.
Don’t forget about your employees. Are they in a safe distance from each other and what things do they touch throughout a shift that might pass COVID-19 germs to other employees? Registers, phones, keyboards, water coolers, doorknobs, etc..
Once, you have completed this initial audit you will be in a position to start optimizing your operations. You are going to first focus on reducing as many Human TouchPoints as possible. Some things will be easy, for instance, maybe you can move to contactless or app payment, then you can get rid of credit card machines and pens. Some things, like railings and doorknobs, are required and therefore you will have to be sanitizing those items on a schedule.
The businesses that do a good job of moving their operations to a contactless or more contactless state are going to impress their customers and make them feel safe and secure doing business. Take this opportunity to really streamline your steps of service and interactions and rethink how you do business.
There are two kinds of Sanitation you are going to be engaging in:
Immediately After Use
Immediately After Use means that interaction is complete and the employee will immediately sanitize the area to kill any germs. This would be chairs, pens, tables, phones, etc. that a customer used or touched during their interaction.
Scheduled Sanitation is the process of sanitizing and disinfecting items around your property on a schedule based on how busy you are. If you don’t get that many customers during a day, you may just sanitize every 4 hours. If you are very busy, you may be sanitizing every 30 minutes. Generally, scheduled sanitation is going to be focused on those human touchpoints that must exist. Knobs, counters, railings, buttons, screens, keyboards, phones. Pretty much anywhere people touch on a regular basis.
It will be impossible to have every human touch point completely disinfected 100% of the time and that is ok. You just need to have a mitigation strategy in place. Your mitigation strategy needs to be in place to mitigate the effects of germs being passed to people. I believe that we will see sanitizer and Clorox wipes everywhere in the near future as they are going to make people feel better that they can double check or wipe down surfaces they are going to be coming into contact with. It might also be a good idea to have masks and gloves available for customers and employees upon request. Obviously at the time that I’m writing this blog, those items are in high demand and should be reserved for medical personnel but the belief is that in the very near future we will have an excess and it would be fine to maintain a stock of those items at your business.
Offering a customer a Clorox wipe or sanitizer or pro-actively wiping down a chair or counter will go along way with customers who are very concerned about COVID-19 germs.
Other Things to Consider while Sanitizing
Always use approved Sanitizer and disinfecting solutions.
Always follow the instructions on those solutions.
Allow surfaces to air dry, wiping surfaces dry with a cloth can lead to cross-contamination or a reinfecting of an area.
Have chemicals present for different types of materials, like cloth and concrete.
You are never going to be able to ensure a 100% germ-free environment and that is totally ok. That is why we include the mitigation strategy items to make up for that.
This sanitation process has to be rooted in the reality of your business and it shouldn’t interfere with your operations.
I want to introduce the concept of Sanitation Theater, it is making a big deal of the sanitation activities and the reduction of human interactions that you are doing to ensure that your customers are and feel safe and secure doing business with you.
I would argue that sanitation theater is almost as important as actually sanitizing. We are all feeling a lot of stress and anxiety right now about being in public, touching things, being too close to other people. Until there is a vaccine and our medical system can effectively treat COVID-19 these feelings are going to be a reality.
It isn’t going to be enough to have an effective sanitation program. You are going to have to be able to communicate that program and the lengths you are going to protect your employees and customers to them. You are going to have to show them what you are doing and why.
Your customers are going to need to feel comfortable and safe doing business with you. Don’t be afraid or shy in communicating what you are doing because it is going to be a differentiator and could help you drive sales.
I would highly recommend that you invest in a platform or program to help you manage and document your new sanitation procedures. Especially if you have multiple locations and you are not able to be in each location every day.
The benefits of using a software platform to manage your sanitation program:
You are going to be adding a lot of new sanitizing tasks to your daily routines.
You need a program that guides your employees through those processes to ensure that everything is completed on time and on schedule.
Data is coming in rapidly from around the world, having a centrally managed solution that is easy to update and implement will be imperative in keeping your sanitation procedures up to date across all of your locations.
You will want to review that each of your locations and employees are executing these procedures because it is going to be imperative to your brand that you are operating safe locations.
You are going to want to document your sanitizing procedures and also that you are executing them, just to be on the safe side moving forward. I fear that after this initial outbreak that litigious people are going to start being litigious. To protect your business it makes sense to document your actions to show your due diligence.
We at OpsAnalitica have been working with the restaurant industry for years, helping multi-unit restaurant operators manage their daily operations and food safety compliance. Many restaurant companies use us today to manage their restaurant sanitation processes. We have 1000’s of locations and operate in 18 countries.
There is no difference between sanitizing a restaurant, hospital, business, school, etc.. If you are interested in learning more about how we can help you implement our Sanitation Software Platform to help you protect your employees, customer, and brand, please click here.
I’m writing this in early April of 2020 and I’m setting the stage of the current environment so readers of this blog in the future will understand the situation here in the US at this time. 2/3 + of the US is on mandatory social distancing, stay at home isolation through 4/30/20, restaurants are only allowed to sell take-out and delivery, and we are two to four weeks away from the dreaded peak of cases.
If you are a restaurant without a delivery or takeout business channel you are probably closed and you are worried about ever being able to re-open. The National Restaurant Association is predicting that 30,000 units have already closed permanently. This is the new reality and this isolation only went into effect 2 1/2 weeks ago.
Currently, I have clients that are still open and operating because of their robust delivery and take out models and their Area Managers are still visiting their restaurants in their local patches.
AREA/DISTRICT MANAGERS NEED TO STOP VISITING THEIR RESTAURANTS IMMEDIATELY!
An area manager that is infected with COVID-19 and who didn’t show symptoms for the average time period of 7 to 10 days could visit 5 to 10 restaurants, or more. Exposing those employees to the COVID-19 germs.
The following guidelines come directly from the state of Washington’s Dept of Health, most states are following similar guidelines here, I chose this one because it was very easy to understand:
Look at the 3rd bullet point: being within 6 feet of an infected person for about 10 minutes. That is all that it takes. The bottom paragraph states what you are supposed to do.
“You should monitor your health for fever, cough, and shortness of breath during the 14 days after the last day you were in close contact with the sick person with COVID-19. YOU SHOULD NOT GO TO WORK OR SCHOOL AND SHOULD AVOID PUBLIC PLACES FOR 14-DAYS.
The reason for this isolation is that you can be sick and contagious with COVID-19 for 7 to 10 days without having any symptoms. You could be infecting people for a week before you get your first fever or sniffle.
Because Area Managers are visiting restaurants, any customers that come into contact with employees who get sick have to do the same.
I’m not trying to be overly dramatic but having your Area Managers visiting their restaurants is exposing your brand, your employees, and your customers to an incredible risk.
The whole point of this blog is to avoid this:
A worse case scenario is that an Area Manager spreads the COVID-19 virus to multiple restaurants, resulting in their shutdown for a period of 14 days and the requirement of a major deep cleaning.
The part that is going to damage the brand immensely is going to be the public acknowledgement that customers who visited those restaurants are going to need to isolate, get tested, etc..
This could ruin confidence in your brand and will hurt the restaurant industry as whole as people will rethink eating from any restaurants during this time.
Some unlucky chain or restaurant is going to be the first. It is inevitable, and it is going to happen in the next couple of weeks or month. There are simply too many people that are infected right now that don’t have a clue that they are sick.
Do everything you can to not let it be you, I fear that very few brands could come back from that.
We recognize the need for Area Managers, they are a very important part of the multi-unit management infrastructure of our restaurants. We need to get them the tools they need so they can be affective from managing from home. We cannot risk them getting sick or exposing the units to unnecessary risk during this period.
We are hosting a webinar on how to make area managers more effective from home. You can click this link to sign-up: https://calendly.com/oa-sales/webinar-enabling-field-team-wfh
FYI: after the webinar is over, we’ll post a video in the blog of the webinar content.
In this episode of the OrderUp Show Tommy recaps his blog on the big money that has been funneled into 3rd party delivery companies that has been used to convince restaurant operators that delivery will solve all their problems.
Well the data suggests otherwise. Take a listen below.
In this episode of the OrderUp Show Tommy sits down with Murk Maddock, an ops services guru,. They discuss Murk’s career and his thoughts on the state of the restaurant industry today. He’s a very interesting person take a listen below.